Chris Hayes: Founder / Developer of RuckWell

0:00 So there's a few different ways that I use rucking. Doing it for wellness is really the baseline of it. And then over time, I've learned to kind of use that as like a meditation of sorts. So just going out for a ruck whenever I need to think about something or if something stresses me out has been one of my favorite ways to use it. Welcome to the Rucker's Edge podcast, a show all about rucking that is designed to help you develop a rucking routine, lose weight, and ultimately gain your strength and energy back. Whether you're an office worker with lower back pain, a fitness first -timer, or a new parent trying to get back to your pre -kids weight, this is the show for you. I'm your host, Spencer. Thanks for joining me today. I'm mixing things up with the show.

0:53 I'm happy to announce that I'm now recording episodes where I sit down and have conversations with other members of the rucking community. I've got several lined up for you, but today's episode features the first one. I'm happy to introduce Chris Hayes as my first guest. Chris is the founder and developer of RuckWell, an app that thousands of ruckers are using to track their rucks and improve their wellness. We had a great conversation. We talked about how he got started in rucking, why he continues to ruck, why he created the Ruckwell app, and the resource he developed to educate his friends and family about rucking. All right, enough with the intro. Here's my conversation with Chris Hayes. Chris Hayes, welcome to the Rucker’s Edge podcast. It's really good to have you here, man. Hey, thanks for having me. You know, I'm very grateful you agreed to come on because I've seen some of your posts on social media about your previous rucking experiences and where you are in terms of your life, you know, being a husband and a father.

1:50 And on top of that, managing and creating Ruckwell, which is an amazing app I've recently started using. And I'm looking forward to this conversation. So thanks again for being here. Yeah, me too. You know, I guess I just want to start out with a little bit of your, you know, your rucking background. I'm curious, who or what got you into rucking? My brother -in -law had this Saturday morning workout group for a few years. It changed forms. It was something like hill sprints, hiking, and then eventually it turned into rucking, and that's when he invited me out. He gave me a very brief intro, but not enough to really know what I was getting myself into. But it was fun. After a couple of times, he told me about this GoWork event that was happening probably about five months after that. And it sounded interesting.

2:51 So that's really where I started and just kind of kept up with it from there. Awesome. So like what year would that have been? That was probably 2016, 2017. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So you've been in the rucking, I guess, area for quite some time now. And that first go -ruck event, what was that like? In terms of like prep for it, did you have any like, I don't know, regimented workouts you had to do beforehand? Or did you just jump into it after working out on those Saturdays for a few months or so? Yeah. So my brother -in -law left the details pretty sparse. Wanted to have that kind of air of mystique around it.

3:36 Sure. So I didn't really know going into the event what I was doing, but he did have me basically just ruck as often as I could. As far as like training programs, I did sign up for Pathfinder. Pathfinder ruck training, which was really great to begin my journey. And that kind of helped me prepare, at least on the rucking side, to get into it. That's awesome. Yeah, I've read a lot about Pathfinder. I've never actually been associated with myself, but it seems like a really good plan, I suppose. And with that, did you have any early rucking goals or did you have anything that you wanted to accomplish outside of the, I guess, the GoRuck event? Initially, I was just trying to do what I can before that event. Not knowing what I was doing, really, I just tried to do as much as I could. Um, but didn't have any sort of like structured thing beyond, um, just following the Pathfinder, which Pathfinder very briefly is the event. That's awesome. And then like, you know, as, as a new rucker, you know, I, I recently started getting serious about rucking and, uh, was previously using just, um, you know, like a regular backpack that I had stowed away in the closet. I'm curious when you started rucking, what, what kind of gear were you using? Yeah, so my first few sessions, I used a Walmart special. Nice. It was whatever

5:07 cheap bag I could find, and it actually did have a, again, cheap water bladder in it. But I quickly realized that was not going to be a long -term solution. And so at that point, I was ready to kind of jump in. So I did purchase a Go Rucker. i think it was a version two yeah so it fit like plates in um these like weird pockets but it's a step behind what they have today sure yeah what they're on like four i think right now and uh yeah i mean i don't have any of the go rec gear in terms of uh plates or uh rucksack i have their the go ruck mccall's and i mean if the rest of the gear is anything like these shoes man they're like Bomb proof. These things are awesome. So I can I can only imagine and just reading all the reviews about their gear in general.

6:01 It's really well, well built. I saw you have some of the sandbags, too, if I remember correctly. I have a wide variety of their stuff. Yeah, I joined and got started at a time where there wasn't a ton of like other known brands. So the go rock was really the thing to get. So, yeah, I got I got a few rucks and sandbags and mostly first party plates and things like that. Gotcha. Well, yeah, it sounds like you dove all in on rucking. I'm curious, like, what is it about rucking as opposed to like other exercises that that you enjoy or keeps you coming back? So there's a few different ways that I use rucking and it kind of depends on like my position in life, like whether I can actually dedicate it to. training for an event or if I'm just kind of doing it for wellness. But doing it for wellness is really the baseline of it. And then over time, I've learned to kind of use that as like a meditation of sorts. So just going out for a rock whenever I need to think about something or if something stresses me out has been one of my favorite ways to use it, although I use it fairly strategically.

7:19 And it's good for that. But yeah, if I'm training for an event, then I can be a lot more specific about trying to have certain goals and doing incremental progress towards that event. Oh, absolutely. I definitely resonate with the reflective nature that at least I tend to get into when I ruck. I had some personal issues I was working out a few months back, and that's when I started taking rucking seriously. And it's amazing how... How easier, how much, yeah, I guess ease, like how easy it is to kind of get into that like reflective state when you're when you're rucking as opposed to, in my experience, rowing or doing some other sort of exercise. And of course, you know, like rucks are kind of long. So you have all that time to think about a problem or issue that, you know, you could be facing. It's very therapeutic. So I agree with you on that. That's great. So looking back on, you know. You said you started in 2016. Yeah, that's quite some time ago. What's one moment or ruck that really changed your perspective on this form of training?

8:23 So the rucks that stand out to me are really the events because those are obviously special in nature. And one of my rucks I did at a GORK event was for my HDL. And I did that with my brothers -in -law. And that as an experience brought us closer together. Because the HTL is, you know, a two -day thing. Three events, three Gorka events kind of smashed together. And so my brother -in -law and other people basically carried me through in some ways. It was a very impactful ruck for us. That's great. Yeah, I'm sure that's a core memory that you're going to be holding on to for quite some time. And forgive me, Chris, I'm not familiar with what HTL is.

9:09 Okay, so HTL, I think now it's called HTB if they still do it. It's the Go Rock Heavy Tough Light event. Ah, okay. Gotcha. It's the 48 hours heavy and then five or so hour break. And then you do a tough and light kind of back to back. Cool. Man, that's awesome. Since we're talking about community and I've seen some of your social posts and your profiles, you're a dad of multiple kids. I have kids too. It's a hectic, busy schedule on my end, as I'm sure it is on yours. I'm curious, how do you find the time to get in a workout or get in a ruck? So I have to find different ways to make it fit. Lately, it's been I try and get up early enough that I can go for a ruck or whatever exercise I'm doing that day before I have to go to work. But over the years, it's been different because I have four kids. Everything kind of changes seasonally. Yeah, I definitely understand. I do something similar. I try to squeeze in workouts when I make sure everybody else's needs are met and everybody's sleeping and happy. And then I then I will do a workout in the backyard. And then for rucks, you know, if I'm going on a run, a long ruck, I have to plan that in advance. I got to coordinate. Nap time and, you know, communication is definitely key with the spouse, making sure that, you know, that she's taken care of, the kids are taken care of, so I can go on this, you know, hour

10:40 -plus expedition, essentially. But, yeah, I feel you on that. So hearing about your experience with rucking, you know, go -ruck events and how you started several years back, you clearly became passionate about rucking, but I imagine tracking your progress became important. How were you tracking your rucks back then? There weren't a whole lot of tools when I first got started. The Apple Watch first came out around that time, and so I was trying to use it to track a ruck, but the apps just weren't very good. And then the phone ones were fine, but nothing spectacular. So when I first got started, really just using whatever walking app there was, and then plugging into that Pathfinder log. I see. The Pathfinder log, was it on the computer or was it like a notepad and pen situation? They have a website where you can enter your rucking details and then they'll calculate totals and stuff for you.

11:43 Oh, I see. But it's within their program. I understand. I understand. So you record it on a device and take that information and plug it in somewhere else. Okay. What problems were you experiencing with tracking your rucks that way? So the program for Pathfinder kind of resets every three months. So your log, you start at zero for every session. And so there wasn't a whole lot of long -term planning, long -term progress that you're able to view within that. And so I was looking for something to basically dump all of my workout data in one place and see the history over the long term. Certainly. Yeah, there's definitely value. And tracking workouts over a long span of time just to see progress and keep you motivated.

12:33 In my experience, for someone just starting with rucking, why would you say tracking is important? I mean, I just listed a few, you know, motivation and, you know, just observing your overall stats long term. But in your opinion, you know, I guess, why should somebody track their rucks? For most people, it is helpful to see incremental progress. Not every product allows you to actually see at a certain detail, but it's helpful to see like, oh yeah, I'm getting a little bit faster here and there, or I'm doing a certain weight and it's becoming easier, that kind of thing. And being able to see like your totals for a certain time period, it helps to have that kind of goal in mind. Yeah, I agree. You just talked about totals. That's one of my favorite things to go and look up. So I have a Garmin watch.

13:33 And so I've been using Garmin. I just recently started using Rockwell, which I guess I have some questions about that coming up, if you don't mind. But I definitely like pulling up, you know, how far I've gone the past, you know, week, month, year. It's kind of fun to kind of calculate how much weight I've had on my back during those rucks too. So that makes a lot of sense to me. Before we jump into the app, I'm curious your thoughts on this, but what are the biggest mistakes you see new ruckers make when it comes to progression and tracking? There are two things that come to mind. The first is trying to compare themselves to what other people are doing. facebook groups we can see people asking questions about like my pace is this with this weight like is that good and that kind of falls into a trap of like you're comparing yourself to other people and what do they say rather than kind of listening to yourself or your body and seeing how you progress but the other side of it is trying to progress too quickly and so you see people jump from like 10 20 to 40 50 pounds and there are crazy people that go Until the hundreds and beyond, which baffles me, but that's perhaps another story.

14:56 Oh, for sure. I mean, I've said this multiple times on the podcast. I am guilty of taking too big of jumps for rucks just out of my impatient nature. And yeah, it set me back a few weeks here and there just along my own rucking plan. OK, so like it sounds like, you know, these these tracking frustrations, I guess, led you to creating. Rockwell. Is that right? I guess what I'd like to know is what inspired you to create the app Rockwell? So I had the idea for Rockwell way back pretty much when I first got started and just having the frustration of the apps at the time. I mentioned the watch basically didn't work for me. And so I wanted to create something where it did. And so over the years, the tools changed. thought process around what I wanted to get out of the app changed. Rockwell initially was called something else, but it was really just the tracking aspect of it. And then this whole side of wellness became more important in my life. And so I wanted to kind of incorporate that into the overall design for Rockwell as a company in an app. That is a that's a great, great why. I'm curious, your own personal wildness journey. Did having kids have anything to do with that? Like with me, I didn't start taking my health crazy serious until I started having dependence. I don't know if that's the same situation you were in or not. Yeah, absolutely. And I had

16:28 a story of when I got my back, had a dislocated disc at one point. And that kind of. put me on the trajectory of, oh, I need to pay attention to this side of things. That's certainly a great motivator. Absolutely, man. So with the app, so when I downloaded it, I think I saw it was version 25 .7. I'm so curious about the early stages of it. Like, what did that look like? What did version one look like for Rockwell? Yeah, so there were a few phases of development. As I like to think about it, the first phase was really just trying to create something simple and yet effective and useful for people. So that for the iPhone came out about a year and a half ago. Over time, I've added different features, tried to make it a little bit more useful and really evolved the app in different ways over time. Awesome. Yeah, I mean. And when I logged my first ruck and I got in there, I was just expecting to see that I could track a ruck. But there's, let's see here. There's, I'm pulling it up. There's rucking. You can track runs, walks, cross training, and even sauna. And I'm interested just to maybe look into sauna a little bit more.

17:52 Is that something that you do or have done in the past? Yeah, so that is part of the wellness aspect, right? So sauna, cold plunge. Um, those fall into the sort of optimization category of what I like to think about it. Um, but it's really getting more out of your body by doing some of those fringe things. But yeah, I do incorporate like strength training. Um, there's mobility. Those are all aspects to a fully thought through program that I encourage other people to take advantage of for sure. And now it's making sense. Maybe I'm slow or something. But yeah, the name of the app is Ruck Well. So it's part of like, yeah, your wellness routine. Ruck Well has two meanings. The first is to be proficient at rucking, right? But yes, it's also the combination of rucking and wellness. I like that. I like that a lot. So I guess, in your opinion, what is Rockwell's best feature? Or like, if you had to choose just one, what do you think your favorite would be?

18:59 The best feature is probably the ability to combine those different modalities into a single program and app that tracks all of it. The most complicated feature is the calorie algorithm, but that's not exactly flashy. Sure. No, I totally get that. And, you know, I'm curious, like... You talked about calorie. I know there's certain calculations that go into that. Another metric or I guess another feature that is in Ruckwell that I saw, I'm just not familiar with it. And I was hoping maybe you can provide me some insight on what it is and maybe how people should use it is the Ruck Power metric. So Ruck Work and Ruck Power were both metrics that I had heard of in GoRuck circles. And that's when I created Ruckwell, I brought those. into the app. Um, but rec work is just weight times distance. And then rec power is that rec work divided by time. Um, so rec work is essentially a total volume. You know, there are other sports where you kind of have this overall volume load. Um, so rec work is an equivalent of that. And then rec power is more about the intensity. Um, and it can help If you have different rucks of differing distances or weights and things, it can help kind of equate them. So, you know, like, am I actually progressing

20:31 in different ways? I see. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe you wanted to see how much work you're putting into hill repeats versus a 5 -mile 20 -pounder or something like that. You can kind of compare intensity across the different types of rucks you go on. Yeah, and I will say there is one caveat to this is that it does not take into account elevation. Because when I heard about it through GoRuck, it didn't. I have a tentative plan to solve that, but I'm not currently ready to share it. Gotcha. That's awesome. So it sounds like you're constantly trying to innovate or, I guess, improve, rather, the app? Oh, yeah.

21:15 I'm always trying to incorporate new things. I'm experimenting a lot with the wellness side of the app and what I want to build into that. And I should have more to share on that hopefully soon. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, I'm very curious and I'll be keeping an ear out for that. And so moving on, I just have a few more questions about Rockwell. But, you know, we've already touched about like why people should use it and what some of the metrics that it tracks, how they can be used for applied. But what's the most surprising thing you've learned from user feedback on the app? When I first built the app, I pretty much built it for me. And when I started getting feedback, I realized there are. different types of ways that people used the app or different ways that people rocked and that came through common feature requests for example pause was a big one because i don't typically stop when i rock but people you know the classic example is somebody's walking the dog and they stop to do their thing and they would like to pause so having Different ways that people wanted to use it kind of opened my eyes to different types of people and different ways to make those accommodations.

22:39 More with Chris in just a moment, including information on an upcoming update to Ruckwell, as well as information on a resource he created about rucking for his friends and family that he has made available to the public. But I want to take a quick break to say thanks so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this episode with a fellow Rucker that might find this episode interesting or a friend that could benefit from Rucking. Sharing this episode would help the show grow and help more people improve their health and lives through Rucking. Okay, back to it. Now, it's my understanding that it's currently only available on iPhone. Are you working on an Android version? Yeah, I've been working on the Android version for some time. It is very close. It is not quite ready yet. It is in open testing right now. And I do hope that in the next week or two, it'll be ready for full release. But there's just a couple of things to iron out. Cool. Okay, one last question on Rockwell before I move on to another product that you have out. But I want to get your opinion on this or kind of have some insight. I see snapshots of Ruckers using Ruckwell and showing the work that they're doing, the progress they're making. When you're scrolling through Facebook groups and you see a snapshot of your app, what are you feeling? How does that make you feel? It brings me a lot of joy to create

24:10 a product that other people find useful. And so when I see screenshots... and people saying, oh, I did this awesome ruck. Here's the stats and stuff. Like, yeah, I feel great that they're using ruck well to track their rucks and make meaningful improvement. Yeah, I bet. I bet to see people using a tool that you spent a lot of time and effort on and it's actually improving lives that that must be a really good feeling. And thank you for creating a tool for us to use to to help motivate ourselves, other people and to continue our wellness journey. But you have another product I saw on the website. It's called Rucking 101. It looks like it's an e -book. It is. Yeah. And I actually created that before the app was released. I had been working on the app for some time. But I was getting a lot of questions from friends and family who knew I was into this rucking thing. But they basically said, what is that and why should I do it? And so I spent too much time explaining that over and over again. So I wanted to create something that I could just basically hand out. That is a really, really good idea. I did take a look at it and some really good information about how to start. And there's some safety aspect to it, too. So it definitely looks like you put a lot of thought and effort into that as well.

25:34 And several cited resources in there, too, which is really cool to see towards the end there. Is that something that was a one and done or are you going to be are you are you updating that as well? Like you make updates to them to to Rockwell? So it was meant to be. kind of this no fluff, like introduction, like here are the benefits to rocking and how to get started. Some feedback I heard after I released it was there's not enough, basically any like personal stories or opinions or things like that in there. Recommendations. So I am working on a version to add some more about like my thoughts and history in there.

26:19 And like I said, it was before I, created the app or released it so there's no like here's how to use rockwell in there so i do want to add that as well cool yeah no that makes sense some some personal insight definitely and if if someone reads the the ebook what's one change they will be able to to make in their training right away so it is made for someone who doesn't really already do it so really my hope is that they'll read it and say oh i should give this thing a try Nice. Yeah, I like that. I like that. And, you know, before doing a rapid fire round, Chris, I had a great time chatting with you.

27:00 And for the listeners out there who want to check out Ruckwell or grab a copy of Rucking 101, where should they go? You can go to ruckwell .com. And then if someone wants to reach out to you with feedback or questions, what's the best way for them to do that? You can email me support at ruckwell .com or find me on Instagram or Facebook and message me there. All right. So let's end the podcast episode with a rapid fire round. And these are just sort of quick. You can elaborate if you want to, but just whatever comes off the top of your head. What was your, well, we already talked about it. My first question was, what was your first ruck sack? But you already talked about that. It was the Walmart special, which I really like how you put that. But we'll skip to number two. If you could only ruck one trail for the rest of your life, what trail would that be? Well, being close to home, there's a local state park that I go to fairly often. I would like to say, you know, I could get out to like the Appalachian Trail or something, but. Logistically, it would have to be the one that's close by.

28:06 I am all about state parks and public places. That's where I do most of my rucking as well. Next one. What's your favorite non -rucking workout? So right now it is probably running because I'm training for a 50 miler in a few months. But really, I like to strength train, you know, traditional like five by five lifts. Nice. 50 miler. We don't have time to discuss that now, but I would definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts on that. Next one. What do you listen to when you rock? Most of the time, it's a music playlist, really just to kind of give me a beat to go at. I do take intentional time and don't listen to anything for a little bit. And then, of course, there are times where I'm behind on my podcast, so I'll do that as well. Last one. What is your bucket list wrecking trail? Well already mentioned the Appalachian Although I do think it would be awesome to travel to like Hawaii or some of these like tropical places that have Different trails to explore like the islands and things Oh, for sure. Something that's completely wild to your routine rucking trails. Yeah, I get that.

29:24 Well, Chris, this has been fantastic, man. I had a great time talking. Thanks so much for taking the time to be here today. And thanks again for creating such an impactful tool for the rucking community. And best of luck to all the additional versions of the app and with updates to Rucking 101. So again, Chris, really appreciate you being here. Thanks, man. Of course. Thanks for having me. All right, that wraps up my conversation with Chris Hayes. I hope you picked up on some valuable takeaways. One that stood out to me was that it sounds like Android users may very soon be able to use the Ruckwell app. You can connect with Chris at ruckwell .com or on Instagram at ruck underscore well. And I'll drop those links as well as his email address in the show notes. If you want to reach out to me, head on over to theruckersedge .com or on Instagram at theruckersedgepod. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow or subscribe to The Rucker's Edge so you're notified of new episodes. And you're not going to want to miss next week's episode because we're talking with Mike Smith.

30:27 Mike is planning on completing an ultramarathon with 100 pounds strapped to his back. I can't wait for you to listen to the episode. Until then, I hope you all are having great rucks out in this amazing fall weather. Thank you again so much for listening to this episode of The Rucker's Edge.