How Rucking Builds Mental Toughness, Grit, and Stress Resilience

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.820
How do you turn rucking from something that just

00:00:01.820 --> 00:00:04.059
feels hard into a tool that actually makes you

00:00:04.059 --> 00:00:06.540
calmer, tougher, and more capable under pressure?

00:00:06.860 --> 00:00:09.179
The answer isn't going faster or carrying more

00:00:09.179 --> 00:00:10.900
weight. Sure, that has something to do with it,

00:00:10.939 --> 00:00:13.580
but it really boils down to understanding how

00:00:13.580 --> 00:00:15.660
controlled discomfort builds stress tolerance,

00:00:15.900 --> 00:00:17.760
decision-making, operational operations command,

00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:21.359
and author of Tough Rucket Bastards. We break

00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:24.300
down how rucking develops grit, mental toughness,

00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.329
stress resilience, and clarity. You're listening

00:00:27.329 --> 00:00:29.129
to the Rucker's Edge podcast, a show all about

00:00:29.129 --> 00:00:30.910
rucking that is designed to help you improve

00:00:30.910 --> 00:00:32.969
your rucking routine, lose weight, and ultimately

00:00:32.969 --> 00:00:35.329
gain your strength and energy back. Each episode

00:00:35.329 --> 00:00:37.609
dives into the science, stories, and strategies

00:00:37.609 --> 00:00:39.929
behind rucking. You'll learn from top ruckers,

00:00:39.929 --> 00:00:42.590
coaches, health experts, and performance specialists

00:00:42.590 --> 00:00:44.490
who break down what it takes to train smarter,

00:00:44.630 --> 00:00:46.869
recover faster, and stay ready for the next challenge.

00:00:47.450 --> 00:00:49.390
So whether you're new to rucking or an experienced

00:00:49.390 --> 00:00:51.270
rucker that's already logged hundreds of miles,

00:00:51.509 --> 00:00:53.429
this is the show for you. I'm your host, Spencer.

00:00:53.549 --> 00:00:55.549
Thanks for listening in. I was fortunate enough

00:00:55.549 --> 00:00:57.750
to have John Daly come on the podcast and share

00:00:57.750 --> 00:00:59.710
his wisdom from his multiple decades of rucking.

00:00:59.829 --> 00:01:01.530
I learned a few things, and I think you will

00:01:01.530 --> 00:01:04.129
too. All right, here's my conversation with John

00:01:04.129 --> 00:01:07.150
Daly. John, thanks so much for joining me today

00:01:07.150 --> 00:01:08.810
on the Rucker's Edge podcast. It's really good

00:01:08.810 --> 00:01:11.510
to have you here. Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

00:01:13.260 --> 00:01:15.819
I just mentioned before we hit record, I had

00:01:15.819 --> 00:01:17.700
the opportunity to pick up your book. I really

00:01:17.700 --> 00:01:19.700
enjoyed it. I think you're an excellent writer.

00:01:19.900 --> 00:01:24.140
I really felt like I was at those places in those

00:01:24.140 --> 00:01:26.540
stories with you. So I really enjoyed the book.

00:01:26.939 --> 00:01:30.359
But a lot of it stems from your involvement with

00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:33.540
Detachment One or Det One, which is the first

00:01:33.540 --> 00:01:35.560
Marine Corps unit in the United States military's

00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:38.819
Special Operations Command. Can you briefly describe

00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:42.019
to the listener what Debt One was and your involvement

00:01:42.019 --> 00:01:43.739
in it? I know that's a loaded question because

00:01:43.739 --> 00:01:46.640
you wrote a whole book about it. Absolutely.

00:01:46.739 --> 00:01:50.079
So I do have to say before we start that my opinions

00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.239
do not reflect the Marine Corps or Special Operations

00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.000
Command or anybody else. The U .S. Special Operations

00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:01.079
Command started in 1987, and it was kind of an

00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:05.120
outcome from the failed attempt to rescue American

00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:10.219
hostages in Iran. And when it was formed, the

00:02:10.219 --> 00:02:12.939
Marine Corps was invited to participate but chose

00:02:12.939 --> 00:02:17.340
not to. And so it wasn't until shortly post -9

00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:22.219
-11 that the recognition was, you know, realized

00:02:22.219 --> 00:02:25.349
that the Marine Corps U .S. was going to need

00:02:25.349 --> 00:02:27.610
more special operations forces. And this time

00:02:27.610 --> 00:02:30.030
the Marine Corps was told that, hey, you are

00:02:30.030 --> 00:02:32.430
going to participate. So the Marine Corps had

00:02:32.430 --> 00:02:35.590
always had its reconnaissance and force reconnaissance

00:02:35.590 --> 00:02:38.129
Marines, which were the special operations of

00:02:38.129 --> 00:02:40.069
the Marine Corps. And that's the units that I

00:02:40.069 --> 00:02:44.530
grew up in. But in 2003, they were told that

00:02:44.530 --> 00:02:47.650
you're going to start as a test unit. And that

00:02:47.650 --> 00:02:52.710
was Detachment 1. Okay. Now. I have a few rucking

00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:55.030
-related questions. Obviously, this is the rucker's

00:02:55.030 --> 00:02:56.909
edge, so the majority of the conversation is

00:02:56.909 --> 00:02:59.069
going to stem around that. In the book you mentioned,

00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:03.069
at the on -start of Det. 1, your resources were

00:03:03.069 --> 00:03:05.509
limited in terms of training, building space,

00:03:05.990 --> 00:03:08.449
you had limited gear, and a lot of uncertainty.

00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:11.469
But y 'all did one thing that you could do to

00:03:11.469 --> 00:03:13.110
train, and that was rucking. And I'm curious,

00:03:13.229 --> 00:03:16.530
what did those early rucks look like before equipment

00:03:16.530 --> 00:03:18.509
arrived and infrastructure was put in place?

00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.659
So as reconnaissance Marines, we all, it was

00:03:22.659 --> 00:03:24.699
kind of expected that you were, if you're a plumber,

00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:26.800
you have, you know, your wrenches and things

00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:28.860
like that. So if you're a reconnaissance Marine,

00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.280
you have a Atlas pack, you know, a large Atlas

00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:34.460
pack. And most of them, most of the time modified

00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:37.879
to kind of suit your tastes with added pockets

00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:40.860
and zippers and things of that nature. So that's

00:03:40.860 --> 00:03:42.979
the one thing that we knew that we all had. So

00:03:42.979 --> 00:03:46.879
we would get up early every Thursday morning

00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:50.150
for whatever reason on Thursday. They would be

00:03:50.150 --> 00:03:54.189
driven out to a location on base, dropped off,

00:03:54.289 --> 00:03:59.169
and it was about a 20 -mile ruck back to camp.

00:03:59.469 --> 00:04:03.490
And we would do that the first probably 15 or

00:04:03.490 --> 00:04:05.930
16 miles together, you know, moving together.

00:04:06.110 --> 00:04:09.750
And then the last portion, we would kind of be

00:04:09.750 --> 00:04:12.110
turned loose into our teams, and it was a race

00:04:12.110 --> 00:04:15.330
at that point. But yeah, from, you know, a lot

00:04:15.330 --> 00:04:18.230
of hills in Camp Pendleton, we would ruck with

00:04:18.230 --> 00:04:21.730
45 pounds of dry weight and, you know, the expectation

00:04:21.730 --> 00:04:24.069
that you maintain at least a 15 minute pace.

00:04:25.009 --> 00:04:28.009
Wow. Okay. So you said Camp Pendleton, where's

00:04:28.009 --> 00:04:30.930
that located? That's in California on the coast.

00:04:31.089 --> 00:04:35.930
Okay. It's between San Diego and LA. Okay. I

00:04:35.930 --> 00:04:38.870
see. Yes. Forty five pounds. You said 20 miles

00:04:38.870 --> 00:04:40.889
every Thursday. Yeah, it sounds pretty rigorous.

00:04:41.269 --> 00:04:47.529
It was. To say the least. Particularly for, you

00:04:47.529 --> 00:04:50.589
know, we had some when we were formed, they pulled

00:04:50.589 --> 00:04:53.850
Marines, some Marines from the East Coast, you

00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:55.850
know, out out here in North Carolina where it's

00:04:55.850 --> 00:04:59.149
really flat. So the hills were definitely, you

00:04:59.149 --> 00:05:00.689
know, those of us who had grown up out there,

00:05:00.730 --> 00:05:04.280
spent time out there were definitely at it. advantage.

00:05:04.280 --> 00:05:07.180
Even most of us, you know, where rucking was

00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:09.779
really not something that you did for pleasure,

00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:12.519
right? It was something that you did in preparation

00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:16.360
for, you know, a selection type of event, or

00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:19.860
it was done, you know, during your job. So, you

00:05:19.860 --> 00:05:23.139
know, it wasn't, it was pretty rare to see somebody

00:05:23.139 --> 00:05:25.639
out just rucking, you know, for the sake of rucking.

00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:29.459
Right. And I imagine the 45 pounds, what weight

00:05:29.459 --> 00:05:32.279
were you using? I'm guessing you're using practical

00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:35.279
equipment that you would need when you're deployed.

00:05:35.339 --> 00:05:37.300
Is that accurate? Or were you stuffing bags with

00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:41.680
sand and whatnot? Yeah, sandbags, usually just

00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.120
because it was, again, we didn't have a lot of,

00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:47.019
you know, regular equipment. And just so the

00:05:47.019 --> 00:05:50.209
kind of the load would set. set better. The Alice

00:05:50.209 --> 00:05:53.850
Pack, if you've never used one, has inside of

00:05:53.850 --> 00:05:56.949
it sewn up high up against the back, a pouch

00:05:56.949 --> 00:05:59.649
that was designed to hold radios, like large

00:05:59.649 --> 00:06:03.670
high -frequency radios or very high frequency,

00:06:03.850 --> 00:06:08.370
and perfect size for putting a sandbag in to

00:06:08.370 --> 00:06:09.930
keep it high and tight up against your back.

00:06:10.110 --> 00:06:13.379
So that's what a lot of us would use. Yeah, my

00:06:13.379 --> 00:06:16.740
buddy Mark that got me into rucking, he has a,

00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.139
well, I guess he had an Alice pack. He was pretty

00:06:19.139 --> 00:06:21.420
distraught recently when he found out that the

00:06:21.420 --> 00:06:24.040
frame was starting to rust and it eventually

00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:27.060
failed on him. So he had to purpose -built rucksack

00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:29.040
instead of an Alice pack. But yeah, I think it

00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:30.920
was very dependable for him for several years.

00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:33.519
Now they make these things called an Alice packs,

00:06:33.699 --> 00:06:35.339
if I remember correctly. I don't know much about

00:06:35.339 --> 00:06:37.019
them, but they're pretty much like souped up

00:06:37.019 --> 00:06:39.339
Alice packs. And someone had mentioned that they're

00:06:39.339 --> 00:06:42.180
kind of hard to get to unless you're still active.

00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:43.680
duty i don't know i don't know if that's been

00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:45.759
your experience or not but you're still involved

00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:47.860
with the with the military though so maybe not

00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:50.920
yeah it's they're tough they're becoming tougher

00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:53.620
to come by so that the actual ones they were

00:06:53.620 --> 00:06:58.379
they were put into service in vietnam and lasted

00:06:58.379 --> 00:07:02.920
through the the mainstream military probably

00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:06.660
up into the early 90s. And within special operations,

00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.939
they're still used a lot. But there are some

00:07:09.939 --> 00:07:12.860
companies that make, you know, civilianized versions

00:07:12.860 --> 00:07:17.540
or aftermarket versions. And you can get, so

00:07:17.540 --> 00:07:19.920
I will buy them whenever I find one, you know,

00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:22.920
for sale on Facebook or, you know, if I find

00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:25.220
one in good shape at a reasonable price. And

00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:27.899
frames, the frames are kind of the, it's a great

00:07:27.899 --> 00:07:31.240
frame, but it is kind of the weak point. So that's

00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:35.120
a common thing to know. Okay. So using the rucksack

00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:37.339
to train prior to equipment arriving, what did

00:07:37.339 --> 00:07:40.220
rucking give you that, you know, access to gyms

00:07:40.220 --> 00:07:43.920
or pools or even obstacle courses? What did rucking

00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:47.360
give you that those could not at that stage or

00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:51.699
the early infancy of Debt One? Absolutely. We

00:07:51.699 --> 00:07:54.439
did have access to, you know, obstacle courses

00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:57.259
and we would often use those in conjunction you

00:07:57.259 --> 00:07:59.579
know you would still go to the pool go to the

00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:03.980
gym but okay i think a solid foundation of rucking

00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:06.839
what rucking will do will do when anybody that's

00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:08.600
done it for any length of time knows that it

00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:12.319
it absolutely develops the mental toughness you

00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:15.259
know mental hardness that the resilience you

00:08:15.259 --> 00:08:18.600
know by going further than you you've done before

00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:21.689
that i You know, the gym, it's hard to replicate

00:08:21.689 --> 00:08:24.829
that. I think in the pool, you probably can.

00:08:25.209 --> 00:08:28.209
But something like an obstacle course, you go

00:08:28.209 --> 00:08:31.189
climb a rope so many times until you can't climb

00:08:31.189 --> 00:08:32.950
it anymore. You know, when you're rocking, you

00:08:32.950 --> 00:08:37.429
can always get back up and continue. Yeah, I

00:08:37.429 --> 00:08:39.929
gotcha. And maybe I'm misremembering. I think

00:08:39.929 --> 00:08:43.370
maybe when you were setting up or starting. The

00:08:43.370 --> 00:08:46.909
individual training course, ITC, maybe that's

00:08:46.909 --> 00:08:48.629
when you were limited on resources for training.

00:08:48.710 --> 00:08:50.230
Am I getting that mixed up? We all limited on

00:08:50.230 --> 00:08:54.389
resources for DET1 and ITC or just ITC? DET1,

00:08:54.450 --> 00:08:56.940
we were absolutely. And that's where we were

00:08:56.940 --> 00:09:01.000
doing the long rocks. When I said resource, like

00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.399
we didn't have weapons at that point. We didn't

00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:06.940
have buildings to actually work out of for a

00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:09.220
lot of it. And then other like communication

00:09:09.220 --> 00:09:11.419
equipment, radios and things of that nature.

00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:15.659
There were, it did take a while when MARSOC was

00:09:15.659 --> 00:09:18.480
starting for all of that, you know, for all that

00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:21.159
equipment to start coming in as well. Well, but

00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:23.840
at that one, we were certainly more limited for

00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.620
a longer period of time. I see. I see. Now, you

00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:30.139
mentioned mental toughness. I kind of want to

00:09:30.139 --> 00:09:34.159
get into that, I guess, aspect of rucking. In

00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:37.799
the book, you use the term stress inoculation,

00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:40.679
which I absolutely love. What does that mean

00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:46.259
in a training context? When a Marine, a soldier,

00:09:46.299 --> 00:09:49.259
sailor. Anyone, a civilian, you know, when you

00:09:49.259 --> 00:09:52.480
find yourself in a situation, you cannot train

00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.759
for every situation. Obviously, you know, you

00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.559
can only do so much to prepare. You know, when

00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.100
you find yourself in a situation that's unfamiliar

00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:06.580
or a situation that has gone bad, you're going

00:10:06.580 --> 00:10:12.149
to fall back on your ability to manage. stress

00:10:12.149 --> 00:10:16.009
of that situation. And I think that a lot of

00:10:16.009 --> 00:10:17.990
studies have been done in the brain. There's

00:10:17.990 --> 00:10:20.169
a portion of the brain called the, I forget the

00:10:20.169 --> 00:10:23.110
name of it now, that manages your stress reaction

00:10:23.110 --> 00:10:25.789
and your stress response. And every time we do

00:10:25.789 --> 00:10:28.629
something that's harder. than we're accustomed

00:10:28.629 --> 00:10:31.669
to we i call it digging the well right we dig

00:10:31.669 --> 00:10:35.710
our well of resilience a little bit deeper and

00:10:35.710 --> 00:10:39.129
so when we when we go to that well you know there's

00:10:39.129 --> 00:10:41.029
going to be water there you know there's going

00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:44.490
to be stress tolerance there and so the more

00:10:44.490 --> 00:10:47.710
that we you know and i think rucking is a you

00:10:47.710 --> 00:10:50.769
know, phenomenal way because anyone, even you

00:10:50.769 --> 00:10:53.850
and I rucking together, you know, I might reach

00:10:53.850 --> 00:10:56.649
the point where I going beyond my capabilities

00:10:56.649 --> 00:10:59.610
before you, right. But I can, I can carry less

00:10:59.610 --> 00:11:01.629
weight than you and you, you know, so we can

00:11:01.629 --> 00:11:04.149
level things out where we can keep ourselves

00:11:04.149 --> 00:11:07.870
at a, where we're both, you know, gaining from

00:11:07.870 --> 00:11:10.870
it. If that makes sense. Why is discomfort that

00:11:10.870 --> 00:11:14.090
you choose different from discomfort that's like

00:11:14.090 --> 00:11:17.690
imposed on you or. Or is there? I'm guessing

00:11:17.690 --> 00:11:21.509
in terms of training and specifically rucking,

00:11:21.690 --> 00:11:24.509
you're choosing to do this hard thing. How does

00:11:24.509 --> 00:11:31.149
that repetitive or routine load or thinking help

00:11:31.149 --> 00:11:34.090
you as opposed to just being stressed all the

00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:36.190
time? I don't know if that question makes any

00:11:36.190 --> 00:11:38.730
sense to you. I'm just trying to get to the root

00:11:38.730 --> 00:11:41.429
of what is it about putting ourselves through

00:11:41.429 --> 00:11:44.159
this controlled discomfort as opposed to... This

00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.000
discomfort that we have no control of. Yeah,

00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.840
I think both will, you know, eventually kind

00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:54.840
of do the same thing. All right. If I was a child

00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:59.320
living in the Dust Bowl in the 1930s, all right,

00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:03.940
I would become very rugged or I would die. All

00:12:03.940 --> 00:12:05.600
right. I wouldn't have food. I wouldn't have,

00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:08.240
you know, maybe not a home or whatever the case.

00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:12.100
Yeah, that. You will either, you know, depending

00:12:12.100 --> 00:12:14.879
on the individual, you will either thrive under

00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:16.840
that situation and come through it or you'll

00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:21.960
give up and die. You know, with something like

00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:24.200
rucking, you can quit at any time, you know,

00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:26.440
and it's not limited to rucking, but, you know,

00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:30.820
physical, physically hard tasks, something that

00:12:30.820 --> 00:12:33.360
I can, you know, I don't have to do this. I can

00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:35.960
drop my ruck. I can go home and. lay on the couch.

00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:39.200
But, you know, by choosing to do that, I'm choosing

00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.000
hardship over ease, a life of ease. And, you

00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:46.500
know, every time I do that, I'm, you know, it's

00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:50.100
becoming less hard. So, the same workout, you

00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:53.600
know, a four -mile ruck that almost, you know,

00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.740
killed me, you know, when I started out, you

00:12:56.740 --> 00:12:59.899
know, becomes commonplace. And so, now it's going

00:12:59.899 --> 00:13:02.909
to take more. to get me to that same point. And

00:13:02.909 --> 00:13:05.070
so, like I said, I'm just digging the well of

00:13:05.070 --> 00:13:08.850
the reservoir of resolve that I have or of capability

00:13:08.850 --> 00:13:12.490
that I have that much deeper. And I feel like

00:13:12.490 --> 00:13:16.789
rucking is just the perfect, at least in my mind,

00:13:16.809 --> 00:13:18.950
the perfect medium for that because you have

00:13:18.950 --> 00:13:22.309
multiple components. You have the load -bearing

00:13:22.309 --> 00:13:24.750
component. You have the kind of cardio component

00:13:24.750 --> 00:13:30.289
of it. You have just your feet hurting. blistering

00:13:30.289 --> 00:13:33.009
chafing all you know so many things going on

00:13:33.009 --> 00:13:36.649
and you're you know well within your kind of

00:13:36.649 --> 00:13:38.629
purview at any point to be like hey i just i

00:13:38.629 --> 00:13:40.549
don't want to do this anymore and sit down and

00:13:40.549 --> 00:13:44.169
call an uber and go home but the choice not to

00:13:44.169 --> 00:13:46.549
do that you know every single time that you you

00:13:46.549 --> 00:13:48.490
know that thought crosses your mind and you choose

00:13:48.490 --> 00:13:51.450
to continue then you're basically scooping out

00:13:51.450 --> 00:13:53.809
another big shovel full of dirt you know out

00:13:53.809 --> 00:13:56.590
of that the bottom of that well Making it that

00:13:56.590 --> 00:13:58.789
much, that much deeper and making yourself that

00:13:58.789 --> 00:14:02.090
much more durable. Yeah. And you're developing

00:14:02.090 --> 00:14:04.389
your mental toughness. I think in the book you

00:14:04.389 --> 00:14:06.909
call it mental toughness on layaway or something

00:14:06.909 --> 00:14:08.409
like that. I don't know the good term. I really

00:14:08.409 --> 00:14:10.870
enjoy it. Now, in the book you mentioned when

00:14:10.870 --> 00:14:13.190
you were starting the Marine Raider course or

00:14:13.190 --> 00:14:16.389
MRC, you said that the special sauce to that

00:14:16.389 --> 00:14:18.889
training was grit. How do you define grit in

00:14:18.889 --> 00:14:26.549
a training environment? I think it's. One of

00:14:26.549 --> 00:14:29.409
the somewhat unique things within special operations

00:14:29.409 --> 00:14:32.690
training is anyone who's going through it is

00:14:32.690 --> 00:14:35.970
a multiple -time volunteer. So they volunteered

00:14:35.970 --> 00:14:38.649
to join the military. They volunteered to try

00:14:38.649 --> 00:14:40.830
out for special operations. And then they're

00:14:40.830 --> 00:14:43.690
volunteering every minute of every day to continue.

00:14:43.870 --> 00:14:47.750
So they can stop whatever they want. They can

00:14:47.750 --> 00:14:54.720
throw in the towel and say, I quit. We use kind

00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.240
of those stress inoculation techniques to develop

00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:02.039
mental hardness and grit. And I think different

00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:06.460
people define it different ways, but really continuing

00:15:06.460 --> 00:15:08.500
to do something that you don't have to do that's

00:15:08.500 --> 00:15:12.899
challenging. Continuing to put the Marines into

00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:17.059
increasingly challenging, not only physically

00:15:17.059 --> 00:15:20.179
and certainly physically, but also mentally challenging

00:15:20.179 --> 00:15:24.960
situations. requiring them to perform greater,

00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:30.559
more challenging mental tasks. Because when you're

00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.679
broke down on the fifth or eighth day of a patrol,

00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.360
you know, walking through the woods of North

00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:42.259
Carolina in the heat with, in many cases, an

00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:46.440
85, 90 -pound... ruck on your back, plus the

00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:49.840
equipment that's in your vest and pockets and

00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:52.600
your weapon in your hands. I mean, quite often

00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.980
they're carrying, you know, upwards of 100, more

00:15:55.980 --> 00:15:58.629
over 100 pounds. And then you have... You have

00:15:58.629 --> 00:16:01.049
to think, right? You have to deal with someone,

00:16:01.210 --> 00:16:03.289
a casualty, you know, when someone goes down

00:16:03.289 --> 00:16:05.110
and now, oh, by the way, you've got to, you know,

00:16:05.110 --> 00:16:07.389
carry their equipment. And it's the middle of

00:16:07.389 --> 00:16:09.250
the night and you could barely keep your eyes

00:16:09.250 --> 00:16:12.509
open, but you have to get to a medevac zone to

00:16:12.509 --> 00:16:15.269
get this, you know, wounded person out. And all

00:16:15.269 --> 00:16:18.409
of that really pales in comparison to the realities

00:16:18.409 --> 00:16:21.350
when you find yourself in combat, you know. So

00:16:21.350 --> 00:16:25.309
our role is to develop that stress inoculation

00:16:25.309 --> 00:16:30.970
to the point where We are forcing them, causing

00:16:30.970 --> 00:16:33.470
them, giving them, I guess, the opportunity to

00:16:33.470 --> 00:16:37.409
perform incredible feats of strength, incredible

00:16:37.409 --> 00:16:41.009
feats of mental kind of acuity and agility and

00:16:41.009 --> 00:16:44.850
physical and mental endurance under situations

00:16:44.850 --> 00:16:47.870
that hopefully are more challenging than they'll

00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:51.190
ever actually run into in combat. Interesting.

00:16:51.230 --> 00:16:56.100
Yeah. So pretty much mental. And physical strength

00:16:56.100 --> 00:16:58.679
to get the job done, regardless of the conditions,

00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:01.200
how strenuous they may be. When you don't know

00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:03.120
what those conditions will be or what the job

00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:07.339
will be, you know? Yeah. Now, a lot of people,

00:17:07.500 --> 00:17:10.980
you know, civilians, ruck for fitness now, trying

00:17:10.980 --> 00:17:14.779
to build up their mental and physical toughness.

00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.640
For that civilian rucker, what are the signs

00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:21.019
that maybe they're actually building grit versus

00:17:21.019 --> 00:17:26.059
just doing something that... Sucks or just suffering

00:17:26.059 --> 00:17:30.099
or are there or is it just you're doing it? You're

00:17:30.099 --> 00:17:33.819
just conditioning yourself unknowingly. I think

00:17:33.819 --> 00:17:35.920
there are signs, but I think a lot of times we

00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:41.059
miss them. So if you were to if somebody that

00:17:41.059 --> 00:17:44.000
just started rucking throws the ruck on goes

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.859
out the door, I suspect, you know, within 10

00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:49.640
or 15 minutes, you're feeling. you know, hotspot.

00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:51.960
You're feeling like, why am I doing this? There's

00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.500
all sorts of questions running through your head

00:17:54.500 --> 00:17:56.980
or, you know, you know, is my shoulder broken?

00:17:57.079 --> 00:17:59.319
Is my, my back really, really hurts and maybe

00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:02.279
I should turn around and call it quits. And there's

00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:04.779
a fine line between, you know, stupidity some,

00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:07.460
you know, sometimes, and I tend to err towards

00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:11.019
that on occasion and an actual, you know, doing

00:18:11.019 --> 00:18:15.339
an amount that's slightly more than I'm comfortable

00:18:15.339 --> 00:18:17.990
doing. You know, and it's really important, I

00:18:17.990 --> 00:18:20.390
think, when somebody is just starting rucking

00:18:20.390 --> 00:18:23.569
or any sort of challenging endeavor to, you know,

00:18:23.569 --> 00:18:26.369
be a little smarter than the average bear and

00:18:26.369 --> 00:18:28.410
not overdo it to the point where you can't do

00:18:28.410 --> 00:18:31.009
it the next day. But I think that, you know,

00:18:31.009 --> 00:18:33.309
probably within a month, you know, that weight,

00:18:33.390 --> 00:18:37.230
that same weight now is, you barely notice that

00:18:37.230 --> 00:18:40.230
you have it on. You know, probably after two

00:18:40.230 --> 00:18:43.250
months when you do get a, you know, you notice

00:18:43.250 --> 00:18:46.650
a blister coming on, you're... It doesn't cause

00:18:46.650 --> 00:18:49.269
you to stop and question your life choices, right?

00:18:49.329 --> 00:18:51.869
You're like, okay, you know, I've had, you know,

00:18:51.869 --> 00:18:53.829
my feet have hurt before. I know how to deal

00:18:53.829 --> 00:18:56.009
with it. I know that I will make it through,

00:18:56.089 --> 00:18:58.410
you know, I'll make it home and I'll take care

00:18:58.410 --> 00:19:00.269
of the situation. I'll be ready to go again tomorrow.

00:19:00.529 --> 00:19:04.470
And I think, you know, we... If you pay attention,

00:19:04.650 --> 00:19:07.910
I think you'll notice that you are gaining almost

00:19:07.910 --> 00:19:13.230
weekly. You're gaining a level of great determination.

00:19:13.670 --> 00:19:16.710
And then over a longer period of time, I think

00:19:16.710 --> 00:19:20.990
you'll probably start to recognize in interpersonal

00:19:20.990 --> 00:19:25.529
situations or traffic situations, you're probably

00:19:25.529 --> 00:19:28.390
a little calmer. You're probably able to look

00:19:28.390 --> 00:19:32.009
at things a little more rationally because the

00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.940
The situation is probably not as bad as the ruck

00:19:34.940 --> 00:19:36.920
that you did last week, you know, that was longer

00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:38.940
than you've ever done before. You've ran out

00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:41.039
of water and you weren't quite sure you were

00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:43.940
going to make it, you know. So you make it through

00:19:43.940 --> 00:19:46.380
things that you don't know that you can make

00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:48.779
it through. Then you're, you know, some of life's

00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:52.720
little petty annoyances become far less important.

00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:56.500
That's an excellent way to put that. Yeah. What

00:19:56.500 --> 00:19:58.680
you said was, you know, if you're starting out,

00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:00.930
you still have to. You still need to learn your

00:20:00.930 --> 00:20:03.509
body. You still need to know what's an issue

00:20:03.509 --> 00:20:06.890
or what's worth stopping for versus what's pushing

00:20:06.890 --> 00:20:09.670
through. So through experience, you get to learn

00:20:09.670 --> 00:20:12.549
your body. You know sort of what your body is

00:20:12.549 --> 00:20:14.210
capable of. Even though you haven't reached that

00:20:14.210 --> 00:20:16.049
point, you start to develop some confidence that

00:20:16.049 --> 00:20:17.690
you can push through it. Yeah, and then through

00:20:17.690 --> 00:20:20.970
daily life, going through situations that will

00:20:20.970 --> 00:20:23.650
test you, you can draw back on your experiences

00:20:23.650 --> 00:20:25.960
from... from that long ruck that you went on

00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:27.640
over the weekend. I like that a lot. It's a really

00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.059
excellent, excellent way to put that. Previously,

00:20:30.220 --> 00:20:33.579
you mentioned making decisions under stress and

00:20:33.579 --> 00:20:38.359
how Marines are trained for that. How does fatigue

00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:42.839
change judgment? And how do, I guess, elite units

00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:46.839
train Marines to make good decisions while exhausted?

00:20:48.859 --> 00:20:52.359
Doing a lot of it is like the best way. But,

00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:57.130
you know. It's so rare now, and the military

00:20:57.130 --> 00:21:00.829
is an exception, but in modern life, most of

00:21:00.829 --> 00:21:04.829
us really, I mean, we may be fatigued, but it's

00:21:04.829 --> 00:21:07.670
probably our own doing because we stayed up late

00:21:07.670 --> 00:21:11.269
watching a movie or we, you know, whatever, drank

00:21:11.269 --> 00:21:13.430
too much caffeine and couldn't sleep. You know,

00:21:13.450 --> 00:21:16.970
most of us, you know, are not. Especially somebody

00:21:16.970 --> 00:21:20.369
who's rucking for fitness, you know, probably

00:21:20.369 --> 00:21:23.069
has enough food to eat. They have a, you know,

00:21:23.069 --> 00:21:26.349
a roof over their head. They can, you know, have

00:21:26.349 --> 00:21:29.130
warm clothes if it's cold and can go inside if

00:21:29.130 --> 00:21:30.390
it's hot and have it with an air conditioner.

00:21:30.529 --> 00:21:34.470
So we're not, you know, we don't have a car to

00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:36.890
actually get to the places if we want to. So

00:21:36.890 --> 00:21:40.569
we're not, you know, certainly under the constraints

00:21:40.569 --> 00:21:43.279
that are. You know, forefathers were a hundred

00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:45.980
years ago. Most of us don't have to walk more

00:21:45.980 --> 00:21:48.039
than, I mean, most people do not walk more than,

00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.480
you know, 200 steps a day. You know, that's wild.

00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:57.319
Yeah. It's wild. So. I was just out for my job.

00:21:57.380 --> 00:22:00.680
I have to occasionally visit a few sites in the

00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:02.779
South and I'm on my feet for extended amounts

00:22:02.779 --> 00:22:06.140
of time. I think it was like right before noon.

00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:09.359
My watch gave me alert like, oh, you've already

00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.200
hit your goal for the day at 8 ,300 steps. I

00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:14.299
was like, what? I'm at lunch yet. I got back

00:22:14.299 --> 00:22:17.420
at the end of the day. I had like 16 ,000 steps

00:22:17.420 --> 00:22:20.599
or something ridiculous. But yeah, I agree with

00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:22.400
that last thing you said. It's like people need

00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:25.009
it. 200 steps. That's crazy. People need to start.

00:22:25.049 --> 00:22:26.750
But that's yeah. I mean, that's going to the

00:22:26.750 --> 00:22:29.569
refrigerator and back to the couch pretty much.

00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:32.549
And, you know, we all, you know, once in a while

00:22:32.549 --> 00:22:34.430
deserve a day where maybe that's that's all we

00:22:34.430 --> 00:22:42.069
do. But the the I think the if if we don't want

00:22:42.069 --> 00:22:45.009
to be that person and that's, you know, the reason

00:22:45.009 --> 00:22:46.549
that a lot of people get into rucking because

00:22:46.549 --> 00:22:49.849
they're like, hey, I'm I'm. The trajectory that

00:22:49.849 --> 00:22:52.349
I'm on is going to take me down a road that I

00:22:52.349 --> 00:22:54.890
don't want to be if I don't start to do something

00:22:54.890 --> 00:22:57.589
about it. And rucking is a great way to get,

00:22:57.650 --> 00:22:59.769
you know, obviously a full body workout and cardio

00:22:59.769 --> 00:23:02.750
and everything kind of included. But, you know,

00:23:02.750 --> 00:23:06.670
we have to choose discomfort. You know, most

00:23:06.670 --> 00:23:08.910
of us will not be in a situation where discomfort

00:23:08.910 --> 00:23:11.829
is thrust upon us. And the things that we, you

00:23:11.829 --> 00:23:13.369
know, the times when we're like, well, you know,

00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:15.970
I had discomfort thrust upon me. It's, you know.

00:23:18.679 --> 00:23:21.140
our Coke wasn't cold enough or our hamburger

00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:23.319
wasn't, you know, well done enough, whatever

00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:25.059
the case may be. I mean, they're like real first

00:23:25.059 --> 00:23:28.400
world sort of problems. More with John in just

00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.779
a moment, including his explanation of what leading

00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:33.359
and lagging indicators are and how you can use

00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.920
them to improve your rucking and fitness. But

00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:37.460
I want to take a quick break to say thanks for

00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:39.519
listening to the podcast. If you're finding value

00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:42.519
in this episode, please text it to a fellow rucker

00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:45.059
that might find it interesting or a friend that

00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:47.180
could benefit from rucking. Sharing the episode

00:23:47.180 --> 00:23:49.460
would help the show grow and help more people

00:23:49.460 --> 00:23:52.299
improve their health and lives. Okay, back to

00:23:52.299 --> 00:23:56.259
it. Now, I know a lot of this conversation I've

00:23:56.259 --> 00:23:58.839
drawn from your book, but in addition to your

00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:01.019
book, you also maintain a few newsletters, one

00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:05.119
of them being Ruck the F Up or RTFU. I had the

00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.279
opportunity to read a few of your most recent

00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:09.200
posts, and I really like the messages that you

00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:13.839
write about. Recently, one of them... was about

00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:17.779
leading versus lagging measures. And it's kind

00:24:17.779 --> 00:24:20.660
of like a way to upgrade your mindset is the

00:24:20.660 --> 00:24:24.819
takeaway that I had from it that really resonated

00:24:24.819 --> 00:24:27.099
with me. Can you introduce the concept of leading

00:24:27.099 --> 00:24:29.720
and lagging measures and why one is more important

00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.240
than the other? Absolutely. And it comes from

00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:35.539
business, right? If at the end of the quarter,

00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:39.819
the company's made, I set everybody around the

00:24:39.819 --> 00:24:43.509
conference table and say, hey, we made 20 % increase

00:24:43.509 --> 00:24:46.869
in sales over the quarter, then that's a lag

00:24:46.869 --> 00:24:48.789
measure. You know, at that point, when I throw

00:24:48.789 --> 00:24:53.650
that slide up on the wall, there's nothing that

00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:55.869
we can do to change that, right? That number

00:24:55.869 --> 00:24:59.710
on the wall was the product of lead measures.

00:24:59.930 --> 00:25:02.089
You know, that was the product of people getting

00:25:02.089 --> 00:25:03.970
on the phone and making more sales calls. It

00:25:03.970 --> 00:25:07.359
was a product of... whatever it was that took,

00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:09.099
and I'm not a salesman, I don't know, but that

00:25:09.099 --> 00:25:13.440
took to get there. But for us, a lot of time,

00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:16.319
particularly, and I wrote that just at the end

00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.359
of last year because a lot of people make New

00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:21.819
Year's resolutions that, hey, I want to run a

00:25:21.819 --> 00:25:24.420
marathon or I want to ruck a half marathon or

00:25:24.420 --> 00:25:27.559
whatever the case may be. And that's the thing

00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:30.079
that you want to do. four months six months a

00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:32.900
year is a lag measure you know what are the lead

00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:36.880
measures that will get you there and often it's

00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:40.519
easy to become like disillusioned or or it's

00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:43.019
hard to find motivation and something that's

00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:46.579
not going to happen for six months but if i say

00:25:46.579 --> 00:25:49.299
that the lead measures is that i've got a you

00:25:49.299 --> 00:25:51.519
know i've got a ruck three times a week you know

00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.630
i've got to increase my distance you know every

00:25:54.630 --> 00:25:57.950
other week or whatever the case is, I can more

00:25:57.950 --> 00:25:59.589
easily, I can measure those. I either did it,

00:25:59.609 --> 00:26:01.710
you know, that week at the end, you know, or

00:26:01.710 --> 00:26:04.910
I didn't. And if I continue to do those things,

00:26:05.009 --> 00:26:08.930
then the chances are going to exponentially increase

00:26:08.930 --> 00:26:13.589
that I will hit my lag measure. Yeah. Okay. So

00:26:13.589 --> 00:26:18.190
I guess it's safe to say leading measure is more

00:26:18.190 --> 00:26:19.869
of like, that's the work that you're putting

00:26:19.869 --> 00:26:23.700
into. Get the results in the lagging measure.

00:26:23.779 --> 00:26:26.400
And that's the reward essentially, or the failure,

00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:31.519
you know, or the inaction. Yeah. Okay. So what

00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:34.819
are some examples of leading measures that you

00:26:34.819 --> 00:26:37.059
would care about when training Marine Raiders?

00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:40.440
You know, just really putting in the work, you

00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:42.839
know, if it's, if it's something that we're doing,

00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:46.099
you know, if I, my lag measure, I want them to

00:26:46.099 --> 00:26:50.079
be able to shoot well enough to. guarantee that

00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:54.240
they can bust into a room and shoot bad guys

00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.799
100 % of the time when shoot a hostage 0 % of

00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:04.319
the time, then that is going to come from a progression

00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:07.920
of training that first, hey, can they shoot and

00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.240
hit the target accurately? Then can they continue

00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.240
to be accurate while we increase the speed? Then

00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.940
can I have them shoot and distinguish between

00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:21.519
a... bad guy and a hostage target and then can

00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.819
i put them inside of a house now where they're

00:27:23.819 --> 00:27:26.200
moving and then can i do it at night and so it's

00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:29.339
a progression of of training just like it is

00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:32.339
if you're trying to go from you know rucking

00:27:32.339 --> 00:27:35.220
five miles to 20 miles you know it's just you

00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:37.779
know what are the the things that i need to do

00:27:37.779 --> 00:27:43.019
to and the more that we can break that goal really

00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:45.619
the end goal the lag measure down into its component

00:27:45.619 --> 00:27:48.660
parts then it It becomes a lot easier to say,

00:27:48.740 --> 00:27:51.180
hey, I'm to see that I'm making progress, you

00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.720
know, in a shorter period of time, if that makes

00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.779
sense. Absolutely. I'm kind of curious. You've

00:27:56.779 --> 00:27:58.839
been rucking pretty much your entire adult life.

00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.079
You've achieved a lot. If a rucker only measured

00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:06.480
three things to stay on track long term, maybe

00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.579
to achieve some sort of rucking related goal,

00:28:08.740 --> 00:28:10.559
like maybe rucking a marathon or something like

00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.339
that. What would you think the three most important

00:28:13.339 --> 00:28:16.859
ones would be? Well, I've kind of had two answers

00:28:16.859 --> 00:28:20.299
to that. I always say that the most important

00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:23.200
thing, if you're going to unfuck something in

00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.579
your life, the top three are sleep, in order,

00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.240
sleep, nutrition, and your exercise plan. So,

00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.000
you know, working to... Make sure that you're

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:34.980
adequately rested because, you know, when you're

00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:37.099
rested is when you're actually the muscles are

00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:39.299
healing and you're getting stronger from whatever

00:28:39.299 --> 00:28:42.359
it is that you did. The nutrition, if you don't

00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:45.359
get that right, then you're never going to maximize

00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:48.440
your potential. But from a training plan perspective,

00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:52.190
I mean, I think there's really. three, three

00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:54.769
big kind of levers that I call them that you

00:28:54.769 --> 00:28:57.430
can adjust when rucking and then a fourth, you

00:28:57.430 --> 00:29:00.630
know, potentially that's, and those are how far

00:29:00.630 --> 00:29:02.369
you're going, how fast you're going, how heavy

00:29:02.369 --> 00:29:04.690
you're going, and then how high, you know, whether

00:29:04.690 --> 00:29:07.490
elevation, if you have, if you have that available,

00:29:07.650 --> 00:29:09.970
it's kind of hard to come by out here in North

00:29:09.970 --> 00:29:15.470
Carolina, but you're just recognizing that, you

00:29:15.470 --> 00:29:17.769
know, a lot of times I think people that start

00:29:17.769 --> 00:29:21.650
rucking and starting rucking is, 1 ,000 times

00:29:21.650 --> 00:29:24.069
better than not, right? Or starting any kind

00:29:24.069 --> 00:29:26.369
of exercise program, really. But since this is

00:29:26.369 --> 00:29:29.529
the rucker's age, there's probably a lot of people

00:29:29.529 --> 00:29:34.130
that listen that maybe were sedentary and now

00:29:34.130 --> 00:29:37.109
they're out rucking and they're proud of themselves

00:29:37.109 --> 00:29:41.470
and they should be. But if you've been going

00:29:41.470 --> 00:29:45.490
out and doing the same ruck with the same weight,

00:29:45.630 --> 00:29:47.190
the same distance, and it takes you the same

00:29:47.190 --> 00:29:51.049
amount of time, month in month out, then you

00:29:51.049 --> 00:29:53.049
really ought to say, Hey, you know, I've got

00:29:53.049 --> 00:29:56.470
to start, you know, not trying to address all

00:29:56.470 --> 00:29:58.470
these things at once, but you know, what's one

00:29:58.470 --> 00:30:00.569
thing that I can address? You know, maybe I don't

00:30:00.569 --> 00:30:03.230
have more time, but I could go a little bit faster

00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:05.950
and try to finish a little bit earlier, or maybe

00:30:05.950 --> 00:30:08.259
I could. add in some more weight and go a little

00:30:08.259 --> 00:30:10.319
bit shorter, you know, and tell those. And so

00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.720
you can kind of manipulate those, those three

00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:14.880
levers to continue to make sure that you're,

00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:16.740
you're growing. And if you, obviously if you

00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:19.559
have access to the, to the fourth and everyone,

00:30:19.660 --> 00:30:21.720
you can find a parking garage. You know, I do

00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.119
that sometimes, you know, there are some hills,

00:30:24.220 --> 00:30:27.220
you know, if a five or six hour drive that I'll

00:30:27.220 --> 00:30:29.980
go head up once in a while, but, you know, just

00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:35.769
constantly thinking if I've, you know, as with

00:30:35.769 --> 00:30:38.250
anything you know if you work out in the gym

00:30:38.250 --> 00:30:40.670
and you all you do is show up and do the exact

00:30:40.670 --> 00:30:43.210
same exercises the same number of sets and reps

00:30:43.210 --> 00:30:46.769
with the same amount of weight then i mean you're

00:30:46.769 --> 00:30:48.910
doing something for yourself that's good but

00:30:48.910 --> 00:30:51.190
you're not improving right you're kind of becoming

00:30:51.190 --> 00:30:54.390
you know stagnant so you've got to throw more

00:30:54.390 --> 00:30:56.009
weight on the bar you've got to throw more weight

00:30:56.009 --> 00:30:58.569
in the ruck or go a little bit faster to to continue

00:30:58.569 --> 00:31:04.599
to to build and that's you know i see Quite a

00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:07.660
few people that I work with that have to get

00:31:07.660 --> 00:31:10.859
sometimes like a little swift kick to pull themselves

00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.519
out of the comfort zone that they get in, if

00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.519
that makes sense. I mean, yes, they're doing

00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:17.380
something that they weren't doing before. They're

00:31:17.380 --> 00:31:18.839
doing something that's challenging, and they're

00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:21.079
doing something that maybe their friends would

00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:24.740
never dream of doing or couldn't do. But you've

00:31:24.740 --> 00:31:27.819
got a lot more in you than you're capable of

00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:30.799
a lot more. Yeah, that's excellent advice. I

00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:32.960
really appreciate you offering that up to the

00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.079
listener. I kind of want to move on to the mental

00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:38.539
aspect of rucking. Again, we talked about kind

00:31:38.539 --> 00:31:41.519
of grittiness previously, but I also want to

00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.680
talk about how it can help with our mental state

00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:48.759
and clarity. You said in the book that you use

00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:51.700
rucking as a form of meditation. How are you

00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:54.799
using? rucking to meditate i guess do you do

00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:56.740
you go out with certain prompts or do you just

00:31:56.740 --> 00:31:59.220
go out with a clear head and just see what thoughts

00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:01.079
pop into your head and just kind of explore those

00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:06.319
well it's it depends kind of on on the day on

00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:09.480
the you know once usually once a week i go out

00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:12.920
with one of my good friends and we ruck and that's

00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:17.289
the function of that ruck is probably 50 % social

00:32:17.289 --> 00:32:21.269
and 50%. So there's, there's absolute value in

00:32:21.269 --> 00:32:23.289
that. It's just going out with somebody and,

00:32:23.369 --> 00:32:26.990
and worrying less about the pace and the distance,

00:32:27.029 --> 00:32:28.970
just you're putting in the work, but you're,

00:32:28.970 --> 00:32:31.450
you're also making sure that you're taking care

00:32:31.450 --> 00:32:34.950
of whatever relationship that is. So on those

00:32:34.950 --> 00:32:39.130
rucks, I mean, that's the main focus, 51 % of,

00:32:39.230 --> 00:32:42.029
you know, the, the reason for doing that is to

00:32:42.029 --> 00:32:44.619
make sure that I'm. keeping up with him or keeping

00:32:44.619 --> 00:32:48.180
up socially. I'd crush him if we were to try

00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:54.319
to race. But if, you know, when I do go out,

00:32:54.380 --> 00:32:56.339
you know, one of the things that I noticed about

00:32:56.339 --> 00:32:59.779
myself is having spent so long in the Marine

00:32:59.779 --> 00:33:03.299
Corps, you know, most of my rucking was head

00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:06.519
down, just going, you know, I was looking at

00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:07.799
my feet, you know, make sure I didn't trip over

00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:10.119
everything, but just moving as fast as I can.

00:33:12.049 --> 00:33:15.769
You know, there are times when that's absolutely

00:33:15.769 --> 00:33:19.450
beneficial, but I'll also kind of schedule rucks

00:33:19.450 --> 00:33:21.430
where I do that, you know, where, hey, today

00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:24.529
I'm going all out. I'm not going to pay attention

00:33:24.529 --> 00:33:26.710
to my surroundings. I'm not going to try to think

00:33:26.710 --> 00:33:29.349
any big thoughts. You know, one of the things

00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:30.930
I've realized, whether it's running or whether

00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:34.529
it's rucking, if you want to go as fast as you

00:33:34.529 --> 00:33:37.730
can, as you're capable of, the only thing that

00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:40.130
you can think about during that entire ruck is...

00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.740
going as fast as you can. You've got to be like,

00:33:43.819 --> 00:33:46.240
hey, I'm moving my legs as fast as I can. Am

00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:48.160
I swinging my arms right? Am I doing everything

00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:51.819
that's going to move me forward? And there's,

00:33:51.819 --> 00:33:54.059
again, there's value in that. That's building

00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:57.500
mental toughness like 101 right there. But again,

00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.500
going out and having a programmed ruck per week

00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:04.259
where you're... goal is to i mean sometimes i

00:34:04.259 --> 00:34:06.519
kind of focus on noticing my surroundings picking

00:34:06.519 --> 00:34:08.679
my head up and that was kind of a big like prompt

00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:12.079
for me hey just you know look around you know

00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:15.380
like look at nature it's pretty awesome and you

00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:19.440
know sometimes i'll try to you know either focus

00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.980
you know it's on one thought or one i mean sometimes

00:34:22.980 --> 00:34:26.460
it's like one problem that i'm you know dealing

00:34:26.460 --> 00:34:30.170
with and then sometimes it's trying to Got to

00:34:30.170 --> 00:34:33.570
clear my mind totally and just be totally present

00:34:33.570 --> 00:34:37.409
in the moment. Very good. Yeah, it's really good

00:34:37.409 --> 00:34:40.530
advice about if you're rucking for a specific

00:34:40.530 --> 00:34:43.050
goal in mind when you're out on your rucks, because

00:34:43.050 --> 00:34:45.929
I am definitely guilty of this, is to stay focused

00:34:45.929 --> 00:34:49.250
and stay on target. It's really crazy to me.

00:34:49.550 --> 00:34:52.789
Rucking is one of the only exercises that I can

00:34:52.789 --> 00:34:56.889
recall where my mind will just drift into some

00:34:56.889 --> 00:35:00.150
thought. that i haven't thought about in a while

00:35:00.150 --> 00:35:03.949
or just distract me from from physically achieving

00:35:03.949 --> 00:35:07.909
but sometimes i i explore it i'm like okay maybe

00:35:07.909 --> 00:35:10.170
i need to start thinking about this let's take

00:35:10.170 --> 00:35:13.949
this time to actually do some thought or put

00:35:13.949 --> 00:35:15.829
some thought into this next action that I have

00:35:15.829 --> 00:35:18.130
to take in my life as opposed to my physical

00:35:18.130 --> 00:35:20.050
wellness, but I'll catch up with my physical

00:35:20.050 --> 00:35:22.750
wellness next time. But you're absolutely right.

00:35:22.889 --> 00:35:25.809
Stay focused. There's absolutely value in all

00:35:25.809 --> 00:35:27.409
of those things, you know, whether it's going

00:35:27.409 --> 00:35:29.969
slower because you're going with a friend that

00:35:29.969 --> 00:35:32.329
you want to catch up with or whether it's letting

00:35:32.329 --> 00:35:34.730
your mind kind of wander, you know, there's value

00:35:34.730 --> 00:35:38.989
in that. But if you, and I think a lot of people

00:35:38.989 --> 00:35:42.519
just default to that setting where hey i'm just

00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:45.539
gonna throw the ruck on and i'm just gonna walk

00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:49.380
and and you know not pay attention to you know

00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:51.239
how fast i'm going off you know how far i'm going

00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:55.179
just you know there's should be a you know in

00:35:55.179 --> 00:35:58.840
in running if you were to and i used to for a

00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:02.800
while got into running like crazy hundred mile

00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:07.389
races you know and you train to build up to that

00:36:07.389 --> 00:36:10.389
you build a what's called a periodized program

00:36:10.389 --> 00:36:13.809
right and so you spend and that's kind of what

00:36:13.809 --> 00:36:17.429
i'm talking about in the the rtfu sub stack over

00:36:17.429 --> 00:36:19.889
the next the newsletter over the next month or

00:36:19.889 --> 00:36:23.650
so is the first phase of that is building a base

00:36:23.650 --> 00:36:26.469
base building so you're just getting in miles

00:36:26.469 --> 00:36:28.530
getting in more miles than you're used to you

00:36:28.530 --> 00:36:32.309
know smartly growing the the essentially the

00:36:32.309 --> 00:36:36.449
depth of your your well you know your your physical

00:36:36.449 --> 00:36:39.429
fitness and then once you have that then you

00:36:39.429 --> 00:36:41.369
have you know a conscious effort that hey i'm

00:36:41.369 --> 00:36:45.230
going to now switch to you know speed or maybe

00:36:45.230 --> 00:36:46.989
i'm going to switch to adding weight you know

00:36:46.989 --> 00:36:50.449
all all everything that's the stepping stones

00:36:50.449 --> 00:36:53.150
are going to take me to the lag measure the race

00:36:53.150 --> 00:36:55.829
that i have down the road you know at some point

00:36:55.829 --> 00:36:59.309
i'm going to say hey i know that the the event

00:36:59.309 --> 00:37:02.110
that I want to do is, is in the mountains. So

00:37:02.110 --> 00:37:04.590
I'm going to have to start doing, you know, specific

00:37:04.590 --> 00:37:07.050
training for that. You know, maybe that means

00:37:07.050 --> 00:37:10.030
going on the stair master or the, you know, stair

00:37:10.030 --> 00:37:12.570
stepper or something at the gym because you don't

00:37:12.570 --> 00:37:16.550
have the, you know, so it's, you know, we should

00:37:16.550 --> 00:37:18.750
really look at our rucking training program.

00:37:18.869 --> 00:37:21.030
Like a runner looks at theirs, you know, we should

00:37:21.030 --> 00:37:25.849
say that, Hey, You know, Tuesday, I'm going out

00:37:25.849 --> 00:37:28.690
and doing, you know, like a mile warm -up, you

00:37:28.690 --> 00:37:31.090
know, a couple miles fast. You know, next week

00:37:31.090 --> 00:37:34.269
on Tuesday, I'm going to slow down a little bit,

00:37:34.289 --> 00:37:37.090
but I'm adding five pounds. You know, and then,

00:37:37.150 --> 00:37:39.960
you know, Thursday, I'm going to do some. intervals

00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:43.619
or whatever the case is but if we think one think

00:37:43.619 --> 00:37:46.800
of ourselves as athletes you know two then you

00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:48.539
know treat ourselves the way that athletes you

00:37:48.539 --> 00:37:50.719
know treat themselves you know think of ourselves

00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:52.860
the way that they do and train ourselves the

00:37:52.860 --> 00:37:55.739
way that we do absolutely yeah one of the great

00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:58.280
things about rucking is that you know and i've

00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:00.260
said this a million times if if i were limited

00:38:00.260 --> 00:38:03.940
to one exercise that i could do it would you

00:38:03.940 --> 00:38:05.380
know for the rest of my life it would be rucking

00:38:06.289 --> 00:38:10.309
But I'm not. So, you know, you know, we can,

00:38:10.309 --> 00:38:13.170
you know, use the gym. And one of the great things

00:38:13.170 --> 00:38:15.949
is it's another newsletter that's coming out

00:38:15.949 --> 00:38:18.329
pretty soon. You know, in lack of in lieu of

00:38:18.329 --> 00:38:20.730
a gym, you know, with just the ruck that we have,

00:38:20.809 --> 00:38:23.650
we can use that to do a lot of the, you know,

00:38:23.670 --> 00:38:25.610
the movements that, you know, a weight bearing

00:38:25.610 --> 00:38:28.179
kind of movements that rucking doesn't. necessarily

00:38:28.179 --> 00:38:31.519
address, you know, largely like squatting, you

00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:34.099
know, hinging, you know, those we can do, you

00:38:34.099 --> 00:38:35.800
know, deadlift kind of lifts with, we can do

00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:38.340
with our ruck and then like pressing, you know,

00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:41.260
we can just do some pushups or press overhead.

00:38:41.420 --> 00:38:43.480
We can lift, you know, press our ruck overhead,

00:38:43.659 --> 00:38:46.619
you know, drag type of things. There's, you know,

00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:48.940
we can use, you can use a ruck to hit every muscle

00:38:48.940 --> 00:38:53.219
group and every kind of modality, movement modality

00:38:53.219 --> 00:38:56.949
to make sure that you're. staying as well -rounded

00:38:56.949 --> 00:38:59.869
as possible. If you're somebody that doesn't

00:38:59.869 --> 00:39:01.889
want to go to the gym or doesn't have the time

00:39:01.889 --> 00:39:04.409
or the access or something like that. But I would

00:39:04.409 --> 00:39:07.969
definitely think we should look at a big picture.

00:39:09.010 --> 00:39:12.230
Rucking, in a best -case scenario, rucking is

00:39:12.230 --> 00:39:16.590
a component of a broader fitness program. Some

00:39:16.590 --> 00:39:19.230
rucking, some gym time, some running, some swimming,

00:39:19.309 --> 00:39:22.639
whatever it is that you can do. Agreed. Yeah,

00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:24.340
I think it's here in Louisiana, we have a term

00:39:24.340 --> 00:39:26.579
called Lanyap and that just means extra. I think

00:39:26.579 --> 00:39:29.860
rucking is the perfect Lanyap for any exercise

00:39:29.860 --> 00:39:32.780
routine or fitness plan you're on. I totally

00:39:32.780 --> 00:39:36.179
agree with that. You just mentioned your RTFU

00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:39.199
newsletter again. Before we close out, I wanted

00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:41.539
to talk to you about that. So what was your drive

00:39:41.539 --> 00:39:44.420
or purpose for starting that newsletter and who

00:39:44.420 --> 00:39:50.119
is it for? I had started earlier than that the

00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:52.340
other newsletter that's called Walking Point.

00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.739
And I wrote a series in the Walking Point newsletter

00:39:56.739 --> 00:39:59.960
on rucking. And there was just a pretty big response

00:39:59.960 --> 00:40:04.079
to it. So I decided to have an offshoot, like

00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:09.780
a sequel, and started two years ago. RTFU is

00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:13.179
a weekly newsletter. And it's... I initially

00:40:13.179 --> 00:40:16.840
thought it would be a lot of young people preparing

00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:20.179
for special operations selection. And what I've

00:40:20.179 --> 00:40:23.920
come to find out is it's probably, it's mostly

00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:28.280
men, probably 80, 85 % men, but you know, there's

00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:31.380
quite a few women as well, mostly like 40 to

00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:36.900
60 or more that, you know, are just in some you

00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:39.619
know, stage of, of a lot of former military,

00:40:39.619 --> 00:40:41.619
but a lot of people who never, never served in

00:40:41.619 --> 00:40:45.159
the military, just using rucking to either, like

00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:46.800
we said, augment, you know, another training

00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:50.139
program or to just as a way to get back in shape.

00:40:50.260 --> 00:40:53.480
And so it's a pretty broad audience and it's

00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:56.360
pretty, pretty awesome to get to, you know, interact

00:40:56.360 --> 00:40:59.059
with everybody, you know, answer questions and,

00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:01.400
and just kind of talk to them about something

00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.679
I love doing. Excellent. Yeah, I've been enjoying

00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:07.800
reading them. I encourage the listener to subscribe.

00:41:08.059 --> 00:41:10.440
If they do want to subscribe or pick up a copy

00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:14.300
of your book, where should they go? So the probably

00:41:14.300 --> 00:41:17.300
the Amazon is probably the easiest place to buy

00:41:17.300 --> 00:41:19.820
the book. Most local bookstores have it or could

00:41:19.820 --> 00:41:22.300
order it. It's called Tough Rugged Bastards from

00:41:22.300 --> 00:41:29.219
Simon & Schuster. But the newsletter is rtfu

00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:32.949
.substack .com. And you can sign up there. And

00:41:32.949 --> 00:41:36.989
then you can also go to jadaily .com. That's

00:41:36.989 --> 00:41:40.510
my website, j -a -d -a -i -l -a -y .com. And

00:41:40.510 --> 00:41:42.829
that's kind of everything, one -stop shops there.

00:41:43.389 --> 00:41:45.769
Excellent. I'll include a link in the show notes

00:41:45.769 --> 00:41:48.110
for everyone to check out. Well, John, we're

00:41:48.110 --> 00:41:49.590
going to wrap it up here. I've thoroughly enjoyed

00:41:49.590 --> 00:41:51.670
our conversation. I have a tremendous amount

00:41:51.670 --> 00:41:53.630
of respect for you. Thank you for serving our

00:41:53.630 --> 00:41:55.230
nation and the Marine Corps. And thank you for

00:41:55.230 --> 00:41:56.889
taking the time to have this chat with me today

00:41:56.889 --> 00:41:59.150
and share your knowledge with the listener, some

00:41:59.150 --> 00:42:01.849
Rutgers out there. Before we go, though, I'm

00:42:01.849 --> 00:42:04.889
doing something new here. If you were to make

00:42:04.889 --> 00:42:07.150
a bumper sticker about rucking, what would it

00:42:07.150 --> 00:42:13.190
say? It would say, life is hard, be harder. I

00:42:13.190 --> 00:42:16.849
like that. I like that a lot. Well, again, John,

00:42:17.090 --> 00:42:18.929
really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for

00:42:18.929 --> 00:42:21.110
being here. Thanks for having me. I had a great

00:42:21.110 --> 00:42:23.989
time. All right. That wraps up my conversation

00:42:23.989 --> 00:42:26.250
with John Daly. In the show notes, I provided

00:42:26.250 --> 00:42:29.170
links to his book as well as his newsletter.

00:42:29.389 --> 00:42:31.329
So go check those out. If you want to reach out

00:42:31.329 --> 00:42:33.469
to me, head on over to TheRuckersEdge .com or

00:42:33.469 --> 00:42:36.190
on Instagram at TheRuckersEdgePod. If you enjoyed

00:42:36.190 --> 00:42:38.349
today's episode, make sure to follow or subscribe

00:42:38.349 --> 00:42:40.670
to the show in your favorite podcast app so you're

00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:42.989
notified of new episodes. You're not going to

00:42:42.989 --> 00:42:44.670
want to miss next week's episode because we sit

00:42:44.670 --> 00:42:46.909
down with Andrew Brandt. We talk about his fitness

00:42:46.909 --> 00:42:49.829
journey and how it parallels so many people that

00:42:49.829 --> 00:42:52.329
get into rucking to improve their fitness. And

00:42:52.329 --> 00:42:54.329
we talk about the book that he wrote, Weighted

00:42:54.329 --> 00:42:55.989
Steps, which is a practical guide to rucking.

00:42:56.309 --> 00:42:58.309
Okay, that's it for today. Thanks again for listening

00:42:58.309 --> 00:42:59.929
to this episode of The Rucker's Edge.